On with the show
Welcome to Brandwagon! First episode! I'm your host, Chris Savage. And this is the show where we're going to be interviewing CMOs, business owners, entrepreneurs, and other creative marketers about why they're investing in brand to grow their businesses. We are super excited. And we have been working very hard to make you a great show.
Hey, crew, what happened to the cord on this mic?
It's a prop.
Yeah.
That's a prop mic. We got a prop mic there.
So very excited for our first episode. We have Mark DiCristina, who's the VP of brand at Mailchimp. He's been behind some of their most exciting brand marketing campaigns, the Serial podcasts, many, many others. So fantastic interview for you. And we have a live studio audience. Thanks for being here, everyone.
[APPLAUSE]
Now, it does look like we have a few familiar faces, Kristen Bryant, show producer of Brandwagon, and David Sizemore, designer of both the brand imagery and set of Brandwagon. Thanks for being here.
We thought it would be fun, because it's our first episode, to take a few questions from the crowd. Does anyone have any questions? Um, oh, Kristen Bryant.
Thanks for randomly calling on me. So a show about brand. Why?
We just keep hearing that people want to do brand marketing and they don't know how. So we thought we'd get some of the leaders and experts together, and learn from them. Any other questions in the audience? David Sizemore.
So surprised to be called on. Set looks great, if I can say that myself. But where exactly are we?
Great question. So we actually took part of our office, closed it off, and made it so that we can shoot Brandwagon and other shows whenever we want. So we're technically in the Wistia office. Any other questions in the crowd? Oh, how about my best friend and co-founder Brendan Schwartz?
Oh, thanks. Honored to be here. Love the name Brandwagon. It's fresh. It's punchy. But where's the wagon? Show me the wagon!
Show me the wagon. I want to see the wagon. Well, right before we jump into this interview with Mark DiCristina, we're going to be jumping into a segment called Building the Brandwagon.
The Dawn of the Wagon
If Wistia is going to have a show called Brandwagon, we're going to need an actual drivable wagon.
If Wistia is going to have a show called Brandwagon, we're going to need an actual drivable wagon. A statement piece to help promote the show. And who knows? We might even mod it out to be a production studio on wheels.
[TIRES SQUEALING]
[HORN HONKING]
Now, you might be wondering, is this guy about to expense an old clunker without getting budget approval? Of course not. I'm a stickler for process. So first, I better check in with Heather Shanahan, our VP of finance, to get the proverbial green light.
Hey, Heather. How's it going?
- Hey, Chris. What's going on?
- So we're thinking about trying to find an actual station wagon for the show Brandwagon. What do you think?
- Wow. I don't know. Getting a company car is pretty complicated. You have to get registered.
CHRIS LAVIGNE (VOICEOVER): Complicated.
- You have to go to the DMV.
CHRIS LAVIGNE (VOICEOVER): Oh, that does sound pretty complicated.
- You need to take care of the title, the tags, the taxes.
CHRIS LAVIGNE (VOICEOVER): (SINGING) Complicated, complicated, everything is complicated. What is that song?
- And how many people need to be insured for the vehicle? Did you think about that?
CHRIS LAVIGNE (VOICEOVER): (SINGING) And why'd you have to go and make everything complicated? Oh, it's Avril Lavigne! I wonder if we're related.
- You're going to need to fill it with gas, rotate the tires, buy new tires.
CHRIS LAVIGNE (VOICEOVER): Chris Lavigne. Avril Lavigne.
HEATHER SHANAHAN: There's a parking garage--
CHRIS LAVIGNE (VOICEOVER): Lavigne.
HEATHER SHANAHAN: --in the winter.
CHRIS LAVIGNE (VOICEOVER): Lavigne. Lavigne.
- Lavigne? Lavigne. Do you think you can handle all of those?
- No problem.
With the budget approved, it's time to find ourselves a car. But not any old car is going to be on brand for Wistia.
How about an old Volkswagen bus?
- Nah, it's been done. '96 Ford Taurus.
- It's funny. It's just too soon. Chevy El Camino?
- That's completely impractical. What about Chevy Bel Air?
- A Bel Air? Slow down, Mr. Hot Rod. What about Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser?
- Oldsmobile. Oldsmobile. I don't like it. What about a Ford Econoline?
- Too boxy. Ford Transit Connect?
- Not boxy enough. How about a used Audi allroad?
- Stop it.
- You stop it.
- No, you stop it.
- No, you stop it.
- No, I said it first.
- Oh, you're going to go I said it first now?
- Oh, now you're going to [INAUDIBLE].
- Oh, yeah, [INAUDIBLE] mantra. I'm trying to give you a good car, and all [INAUDIBLE].
CHRIS LAVIGNE (VOICEOVER): Dan and I had some great ideas, but couldn't quite land on the right car. So I decided to turn to the Wistia design team to see if they could put us in the fast lane to the right vehicle.
- A Brandwagon, huh? So a car that represents our brand. Tell us more.
- It's got to be playful. It's got to be fun. It's got to be reliable.
- You mean like Wistia.
- Exactly. It's got to make you smile. It's got to be cool, but not flashy, vintage, but not too old. It's got to be friendly, whimsical, attainable, confident, but not cocky. We're going to need ample storage, plenty of places to mount cameras, and if I'm being honest, I'd love a tan interior! So what do you think?
- Volvo wagon.
- Volvo wagon.
- '90s Volvo wagon.
- Volvo wagon.
- Got to be a Volvo wagon.
- A Volvo station wagon. It's perfect.
Armed with inspiration for the right car, our Craigslist search began.
- Does it have to be in New England?
- I would like it to be in New England, because I'd like to go and visit it.
MAN (ON PHONE): [INAUDIBLE]
- Hey, there. I'm calling about the Volvo station wagon you have on Craigslist. Is that still for sale? Oh, bummer.
Well, this looks promising.
DAN MILLS: It's so clean. The thing is, the car needs to be drivable. It's got to be a little safe.
CHRIS LAVIGNE: Dave, what do you think of this car?
- Yeah.
- I'm going to call.
- It looks great. You should do it.
- I'm calling them.
- You should call them.
DAVE (ON PHONE): Hello. This is Dave.
- Hey, Dave. My name is Chris Lavigne. I am calling about the '91 Volvo 240 you have on eBay. Is that still for sale?
DAVE (ON PHONE): The wagon with manual transmission?
- Yep.
DAVE (ON PHONE): Yes, it is.
- It is. All right. I'm guessing the car runs pretty well. It looks really clean.
DAVE (ON PHONE): This is a Texas car. We bought it in Texas. Paid almost a thousand bucks just to get it here. Like, the car's that nice.
- Yeah, I heard that-- yeah, the rust on these cars are usually the death sentence for them, right?
DAVE (ON PHONE): Yes.
- Well, listen, Dave, let me talk to my colleagues. And I'll get an answer back to you as soon as possible. Dave, thank you very much.
DAVE (ON PHONE): Thank you very much.
- All right. Bye-bye. I think we found it.
- I agree.
- Well, Dave-- Dave's-- we got to go meet him.
- All right.
[APPLAUSE]
- Wow. That was great.
- You're great.
- Oh, come on. (NEW ENGLAND ACCENT) No, you are.
- Oh, come on. It was that accent.
- So we've always wanted a car. Why did we get a car now?
- Well, it's not every day you're allowed to expense a car at your company. Dan and I have been toying with the idea of buying a wagon for a long time. We finally got this show Brandwagon, a play on the words of bandwagon. Cheers.
- Cheers. Cheers.
- It's a play on the words of bandwagon. So we're talking about a Brandwagon, station wagon. It's a perfect opportunity to actually turn this dream into a reality.
- And why a Volvo?
- Mm. The Volvo-- actually, it's funny. We've internally had meetings about if Wistia, the brand, were a car, what would it be?
- Yeah, what it would be?
- And we've all actually landed on a Volvo. It's safe. It's reliable. It's well-built.
- It's fun to drive.
- It's fun to drive.
- Fit a lot of people in there.
- You can fit a lot. I think you could probably fit eight or nine Wistians in there.
- Very long-term view, very lasting car.
- Oh!
- Good range on it.
- I like what you're doing there. Yeah.
- Yeah. And you have to go get this thing somewhere?
- Yeah, there's only one way to look at this thing, and that's going to be to kick the tires in person. So Trevose, Pennsylvania, here we come.
- Wow. I can't wait. We'll be right back with the interview with Mark DiCristina right after this.
Interlude: How Many Chairs
(SINGING) How many chairs?
- How many chairs do you think are at Wistia?
- How many chairs?
- Yeah.
- I'm going to say 150 chairs.
- 250.
- 277.
- 115.
- 207?
- Maybe 150?
- 700.
[LAUGHTER]
- So you're a no-chair guy.
- Someone stole my chair.
- Are these Price Is Right rules?
- 200.
- Oh, you're chewing. I didn't realize you were chewing. I'm sorry. You don't have to answer this.
This staircase doesn't go anywhere? Yeah.
Whew. OK. I got 276.
- Wow. But I think there might be two more.
Whew. 277.
- 278.
Interview with Mark DiCristina
I am very excited to play this interview for you that we recorded with Mark DiCristina just a few weeks ago. Mark is the VP of brand at Mailchimp. And he also heads up Mailchimp Studios, which is where they're producing all of their podcasts and their video shows.
Mailchimp is a brand we've looked up to for a long time. And I'm very excited that they are here with us on Episode 1 of Brandwagon. I learned a ton in this interview, as Mark went very deep on their brand strategy, what's next, what they're thinking about, what's working, and what's not. So I hope you learn a ton, too.
Mark, I think you might be our first guest on the show. Do you know that?
I didn't know that.
Pretty exciting.
Wow.
Yeah.
OK.
I have to say, this outfit is incredible. You've outdone yourself.
Thank you. I appreciate it. I hadn't noticed that you were wearing the exact same outfit. But you look really good.
Oh, thank you.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a sharp outfit.
So tell me your story. How did you end up at Mailchimp? What has that experience been like? You've been at Mailchimp from-- I think it was from 15 employees to 1,000?
Yeah.
Is that right?
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So I started just over 10 years ago. And at the time, in 2009, email marketing was not sort of what it is today. It was more associated with spam and bad actors and stuff. And so I remember telling my friends and family I was going to work at this email marketing company. And they were like, sounds a little bit sketchy.
When you think about a brand and the components of a brand, what goes into a brand?
Well, I feel like the brand is just sort of like your reputation. It's how people feel about you. So in some ways, very real ways, it doesn't belong to you at all. It actually exists in the minds of other people. And the best that you can do is to sort of influence that in a positive way, and have as much control over that perception--
People's perception.
--of how people feel as possible. So a really good brand, I say there's not much distance between the way you think about yourself and the way other people think about you. But you can probably think of lots of companies that like to talk about their brand as being X, Y, and Z. And you ask any person on the street what they think, and it's very different. And that's the brand. It's how other people think.
So Mailchimp had an incredible ad campaign, where you were taking the Mailchimp brand, and you were putting different names out there and totally different creative copy, the MailKimp, KaleLimp, JailBllimp, this entire insane campaign. Tell me about this. And what was the goal of that campaign?
Yeah, well, the goal for that campaign was to create awareness for Mailchimp, and basically bring Mailchimp to a much wider audience. We were famous in the tech world. We were famous with small businesses. But the goal for that campaign was basically to say, how can we be Mailchimp on a much bigger stage? And so for us, creating affinity for Mailchimp, awareness for Mailchimp, with a much wider sort of like popular culture audience was the goal.
So you're doing this to build awareness and affinity for Mailchimp. How did you know that you had the right creative for this?
Well, it took a really long time. And it was really hard, because what we were doing was trying to bottle up all of the weird, fun stuff that we had done when there was no expectations and no pressure, and do that with a much larger budget on a much bigger stage with lots more people watching. And the thing that was hard was that everything that the ad agency kept coming back with felt like advertising. And we wanted something that felt extremely different and absurd and surprising. And so we finally landed on that concept.
And honestly, the thing that made us feel like it was the right decision was our account director pulled us aside one day-- myself and the CMO. And we sat down, and he said,
I have to tell you that this campaign feels borderline reckless. And it was in that moment that I felt like, OK, we're onto something.
Yeah, because we had been chasing that feeling of, like, discomfort.
You feel it in your gut.
Yeah, you feel in your gut, like, this is a big risk. And we think it's going to work. But it's going to require everyone to sort of hold hands and jump together. And getting the agency to the point where they felt that sort of like gut churning a little bit was actually the thing that for us felt like, OK, we finally landed on something that's brave enough and bold enough for us to go for.
So you've had a ton of success with that ad campaign. Now you've transitioned to something totally different, Mailchimp Presents. Tell me about Mailchimp Presents.
Yeah, so Mailchimp Presents is an entertainment platform for entrepreneurs. Mailchimp's mission has always been about empowering small businesses, and helping them succeed and to grow. And we've always done that with software.
But over the last couple of years, we began to feel like there are other ways that we could do that. We could make content that inspires them, and motivates them, and makes them feel like they're not alone. And so Mailchimp Presents is a platform, a destination for content with that in mind.
And then you switched from advertising to building a library of content, a content platform. Why the switch?
Yeah. There were a bunch of different reasons. One of the driving reasons, though, was that advertising is really expensive, and it's only working when you're spending money.
Yeah.
It's like, the minute that you stop spending money, it just disappears. It's also very ephemeral. It loses its relevance very quickly.
And it's constantly interrupting people. The whole basis of advertising is, like, we're going to put something in front of you that you didn't necessarily ask for. And that's fine. That's not a value judgment at all. We love advertising, obviously. We're big fans. And we do it a lot.
But we started to think, like, there might be a better way for us to use this budget. And what we found with original content is that it's more durable, lasts longer, doesn't require people to be interrupted. It changes our relationship with our customers. So now instead of interrupting people all the time, they want to come and engage with us.
So it's like, instead of trying to be the ad in the podcast that some percentage of people are going to skip over, you're trying to be the podcast--
Yeah.
--and have a story that's lasting instead of an ad that's being changed out.
Yeah.
Which is hard, obviously, but exciting, because it's a big bet. But if it works, you end up really building a significant audience.
Yeah. And the funny thing for us is, like, the cost difference is fascinating, because in many cases, it's actually less expensive to make the podcast. And you own it forever. The reason that you buy the ad instead of making the podcast is because you're buying the audience.
Yes.
So you get in front of people who are listening to those shows.
For Mailchimp, we have an audience. Over years and years, we've built this really big audience. We have a very big access to lots of people and to our customers. And they trust us. And so we have the audience built-in. So why should we always be spending money to be in front of them when we can just make the thing, we can still be in front of them, we can have a better relationship with them, and we get to keep the content? So it's like, yeah, it's a--
No-brainer.
--win-win-win-win-win.
So you are building a studio, effectively.
Yeah.
And it's almost like you've taken your budget from advertising to building a studio.
Yeah.
And then how do you look at success for this? I know these are very long-term investments.
Yeah.
And what you're describing is a big vision. But short-term, what do you look at that makes you feel like, yep, this is working or it's not working?
Yeah, well, there's lots of different things that we're thinking about. One is on the sort of intangible side, we aspire to be the greatest small business brand in the world, and to be loved and inspiring and an amazing brand. And so there's lots of those kind of metrics that we're looking at is, like, how can we make people feel like Mailchimp is just--
Connection--
Yeah.
Connection to Mailchimp. Strengthen that connection.
Like, a strong, positive connection to Mailchimp.
But there are also lots of other sort of quantitative and analytical things that we look at, too. And we want people to spend more time with Mailchimp. We want this content to drive behavior inside our products.
And so it's still super early days, but our bet is that making content like this will actually make people stay with Mailchimp longer. It will reduce churn. It will make their average monthly spend go up, their average monthly time with us go up. It will actually have really tangible business benefits for us.
And we've already seen that in the first few months. The people who engage with this content are paying us more quickly. And when they pay us, they pay us more money, which is just completely mind-blowing. We wanted that to happen. And we were expecting that to happen at some point. But from the minute we launched the first thing in January, with no promotion, we were starting to notice that people who actually engaged with this content were behaving differently than other people.
So you're saying-- just to make sure I got it, because it's kind of mind-blowing what you're saying.
Yeah.
You're saying the content that you're putting out there-- that is, the Trade Show Show, all of these different things, which none of them are about the Mailchimp product at all.
Yeah. Yeah.
Nothing close, right?
Yeah.
Pretty far out. They're about the feeling that your customers have.
Yeah.
That that content is actually affecting their connection to Mailchimp in such a way that when they are trying the product, they are buying faster or spending more, trusting it more, like, you can actually see that.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's insane.
Yeah, it really is.
That's crazy, right?
It's amazing.
You said that you'd taken your whole brand awareness budget to put it into this content.
Yeah.
What percentage of the budget do you take to put towards this enduring content?
Almost all of it.
Wow.
Well, we have different-- it's not our whole marketing budget. But the part of our budget that is investing in our brand, it's almost all of it.
Wow.
And I guess I would also separate and say that budget is split into the production of the content and then the marketing of the content. So one thing that's different about this content is that previously, we used that budget to advertise Mailchimp. Now the content we're making has become a product of Mailchimp. And so we not only have to make the content, but now we have to advertise the content. So now we have an advertising budget to promote the content.
The content, but it's all around the brand.
Yeah.
If you had advice for someone who's starting out, who's Mailchimp when you're 15 people, maybe before the free launch, and they're thinking about trying to grow their business, they're thinking about brand-- I think it's become more obvious today that brand matters. There's just so much competition. It's expensive and hard to reach people. I think brand matters more than ever. What advice would you give to somebody who's in the early stages of running a company for how they should think about building their brand?
I guess the two things that I like to always say are, like, understanding yourself and understanding your audience, and then being able to sort of match those things together. So I think you have to spend some time sort of contemplating, like, if we were going to try to develop these intangible qualities of our brand, what would those be? What are the dimensions where we are different, and can stand out in a meaningful way, and also truthful? So if it's different but not authentic to who you are or to your company or your product or your culture, it'll be hollow. And if it's truthful but it's not different, nobody will care. So it has to be both meaningfully different and also authentic. That's the you side of the equation.
And then the other side, it's like, who is your audience? Who are the people that you want to be engaging with? And what's important to them? And specifically, what's important to them in this relationship?
So for Mailchimp, we may have lots of creative customers who are really into sneaker culture or whatever, but we can't just make a thing about sneakers. We could make a show about-- I mean, there are a lot-- you could imagine a show where you could tie all of that together, but it can't just be about what's relevant to them sort of in their lives. It's like, how do you marry--
You have to match those two.
Yeah, you have to match those together. And so I think that's work that is-- it's simple, but it can be hard. It doesn't require any money, but it does require some insight. And so that's where I would start.
And then once you have sort of a decent understanding of those elements, then you can begin to think of like, OK, so then how do we act on that? How do we bring that to life? And even if you have a teeny-tiny budget or no budget at all, there are ways that you can-- even just through copy, or through the way that you write your website, or the way that you run your social feeds, you could change the way that you talk to people, or change the things that you link to, or there are all kinds of ways that you can begin to sort of reinforce that point of view that can have a big impact without a big spend.
But if you have some budget, then you can think about, what are the formats for bringing that to life that would have an impact for your business? And it could be video or podcast, but it can also be, like, making cat hats or whatever.
Mark, thank you so much for being here today. Really enjoyed having you on Brandwagon.
It's super fun. Yeah.
Mark DiCristina, right? First interview!
Yeah! That was awesome. I was blown away to learn about Mailchimp's shift from brand advertising into branded content. They're basically a studio at this point, which is wild. I really look up to them. And it's so cool to learn about what they're doing over there.
That's our first episode. Thanks for being here, everyone. Thanks for being here, crew. Thanks for being here, live studio audience. And we'll see you next time.
ANNOUNCER: On the next Brandwagon, Chris sits down with Nancy [INAUDIBLE] from Hydro to hear why brands need to be more like rocky road than vanilla. And the crew heads to Pennsylvania to find out if that '91 Volvo is as rust-free as advertised.
Someone should stand. There it is. [LAUGHS] That's it.
